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Letter to the Editor: Gun Legislation

"Throwing a bit of light onto the hot controversy surrounding prospective gun control legislation."

 

Dear Susan:

I'd like to submit this piece in hopes of throwing a bit of light onto the hot controversy surrounding prospective gun control legislation.  It would seem that the terminology itself is confusing...both by intention and through ignorance.  Since I am professionally engaged in the firing range industry, I'd hope that my advocacy might have some purchase...at least with those honestly confused and not ideologically rigid.  

LETHALITY (not appearance) is the real gun issue. Semi-automatic and automatic weapons are military and police tools. They were designed to kill the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible. Any distinction is academic between Semi- and Automatic weaponry. "Conversion kits," readily available on the grey-market, easily can reconfigure a semi- into an automatic weapon.

Definitions: A SEMI-automatic weapon automatically ejects the spent cartridge and automatically rechambers the next bullet. But you must pull the trigger for each shot. A fully AUTOMATIC weapon (ex: AK-47, Browning M2E2, UZI,  HK-417) does all of the above, plus it will keep firing as long as you pull and hold the trigger, until the magazine is exhausted. (By the way, only Automatics are true "assault weapons." I wish our legislators would get their terminology straight.  They leave a loophole large enough for the NRA's Wayne LaPierre to slither through!)

Neither style weapon — nor its accoutrements (30 > 50-round magazines, 100-round drums, unjacketed or hollow-point bullets, stockpiled ammunition -- have any business in the hands of civilians. (If one wants to outfit themselves with such an arsenal, I suggest they join a WELL-REGULATED Militia — as detailed in the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution)...the Marine Corps, the Army infantry, the Seals, Delta Force, the Virginia National Guard, or any big-city police SWAT team.)

For self and property protection, competitive and recreational target shooting, the hunting, skeet, and trap sports — a well-trained gun owner has no need whatever for semis- or automatics. These guns — because of their inherent lethality — have become choice Weapons of Mass Destruction for unstable mass murderers.  They should be banned outright to the civilian gun owner community. Yes...that may well harm a very profitable part of the arms industry. So be it. 

Just as important, the ATF Bureau must grow some teeth, backbone, and two more private parts. Their "regulation" of the gun trade, reporting requirements, background checks, etc. is a sick joke. They — and a supine Congress — make one wonder: for whom do they really work?

This note might appear that I'm anti-gun. Far from it...I'm in the business of supplying ballistic rubber media to firing ranges. This material safely encapsulates the fired projectile and its byproducts; lead dust, ricochet shrapnel, back-splatter.  Many new and renovated ranges now are opening to provide live instruction in responsible gun ownership and to train owners to qualify for open-carry permits.  I totally support both goals.

Jesse Clear, Owner/Principal
Rubber Mulch Is US LLC

Editor's Note: Patch accepts letters to the editor for consideration from local residents. Letters may be emailed to fredericksburg@patch.com.  Send them as you want them to be published, as they appear unedited.  Include your name and any affiliation under which you are writing.

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About this column: A forum designed for insightful public commentary on life, politics and news in and around Fredericksburg. Related Topics: Gun control Legislation, Letter to the Editor, and gun control

Lyn

8:22 am on Thursday, December 27, 2012

This is a well written letter that I believe addresses the most important issue. There is NO reason for "Joe Public" to have automatic weapons.

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Tony Sheffield

11:33 am on Thursday, December 27, 2012

No mention of tyranny at all. The meat of the 2nd Amendment is the protection from a tyrannical government. The writer also fails to mention the "unregulated" militia, We The People.

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Cheryl Darby

4:23 pm on Wednesday, January 2, 2013

A tyrannical government? Does that mean any government that doesn't adhere to the radical right-wing ideology. The 2nd Amendment was written in the infancy of this country. The framers were not so sure how a democracy would work. Even though it's sometimes messy, democracy is better than any other system. To have people in this country stockpiling weaponry to use against a "tyrannical government".chills me to the bone. We had one Civil War in this country. We surely can learn to at least tolerate other views. We don't need to arm ourselves against our own neighbors.

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Russell Ramsey

6:35 pm on Thursday, January 3, 2013

Jesse, selling rubber mulch for bullet traps does not qualify you as a gun professional. And your mulch sales are the only qualifying background you claim. Your letter is littered with inaccuracies and short sightedness. I retired two years ago after serving for more than 30 years in the Marine Corps so I did join a real militai. I'm 100% disabled with 90% from combat and I can tell you there's a monumental difference between semi-automatic and full automatic. Perhaps you should lead a house clearing CQB team in Afghanistan with just a semi-auto rifle while everyone else has the option of full auto and then tell me there's no difference. I use my AR-15's for competitions, hunting and recreational shooting all the time and so do millions of other honorable sportsmen. Your claim to be a firing range professional does not make you a weapons or tactical expert. You're also severely out of touch with today's shooting sports such as Three Gun competitions, Camp Perry nationals or how millions of people use AR-15 rifles chambered in 5.56 for varmint hunting and AR-10's chambered in 7.62 for competition & big game hunting as well. Hopefully, since you're not a weapons expert you'll follow your own advice about not being "ideologically rigid."

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Eric Jeffrey

12:21 pm on Friday, January 4, 2013

Tony Sheffield's claims are totally unsubstantiated. There is not a single word in the papers or debate of the founding fathers suggesting that the Second amendment was designed to protect against a tyrannical government. That is a very modern day invention. Second, the Amendment by its terms refers only to "well-regulated" militia. It is entirely clear that a ban on automatic/semi-automatic weapons would be fine under the Second Amendment.

jim curtin

11:33 am on Thursday, December 27, 2012

Once again, someone has expressed what seems to be reasonable and clearly stated opinions of what should be. However, it should be pointed out to the general reading public and to the self proclaimed "Professionally engaged in the firing range industry" person that he is either completely ignorant regarding the "terminology" he is commenting on or is intentionally misleading the folks reading this letter. He has described the difference between Semi-automatic and automatic weaponry fairly well, however he does not explain that since the early 1980's MOST shotguns, handguns and rifles are semi-automatic and are NOT the "Choice weapons of mass destruction for unstable mass murderers"... I can tell you without question that a 12 guage semi-automatic shotgun would be a much more lethal in closed quarters than ANY semi-automatic handgun because of the "spray' of the shot. This is why it is the weapon used by the first police officer on a "Breach team" but I digress...

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jim curtin

11:33 am on Thursday, December 27, 2012

All Automatic weapons are completely illegal for the average citizen to own or possess. So, Lyn, the second sentence in your comment is correct but the first sentence is completely incorrect. This is not a well written letter that addresses the most important issue, Automatic weapons in the hands of citizens has never been an issue... There are very few "automatic" weapons out there and they are mostly in the hands of federal agents and certified BATFE registered firearms dealers. The only firearms out there that are NOT "semi-automatic" are revolvers, lever action/bolt action rifles and pump action or double barrel shotguns... Most recreational shooters use semi-automatic weapons for their sport and never have any illegal or murderous intentions. Its never going to be about the style of weapon used. It is completely about how the assailant gets a hold of the weapons used. If they are obtained legally then there must have been a loophole in the background checking system. This NEEDS to be addressed. If he obtained the weapons from someone else who had legally obtained them, that person should be charged as an accessory to the crime. No person who owns firearms responsibly stores them in a way that someone else can access them. EVER! And finally, if the assailant obtained the firearms illegally then there should be stiffer penalties regarding the illegal firearm. Not everyone should have any type of firearm. Its not popular but that is the reality.

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Doug Peterson

3:26 pm on Thursday, December 27, 2012

Individuals may own fully automatic firearms, just not any that were manufactured after 1986. To own an eligible firearm, one must obtain special approvals from BATFE, the local chief law enforcement officer, and pay a special tax. As such firearms are in limited supply, the tend to be very expensive (think cost of new car).

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Judy Rudek

3:26 pm on Thursday, December 27, 2012

Actually, jim, it *is* legal for an "average citizen" to own a fully-automatic firearm. It requires a mountain of paperwork, a firearm made before 1986, and a $200 fee to the BATFE. Once approved, you are allowed to own said firearm.

Of course, if your definition of "average citizen" means "someone who can't spend $10K on a luxury item", then you're probably right. Legal machine guns are not cheap.

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Eric Jeffrey

12:23 pm on Friday, January 4, 2013

It is, in fact, now possible to own and get a permit for, a fully automatic weapon. However, the cost and difficulty of getting a permit make it very little used.

jim curtin

11:33 am on Thursday, December 27, 2012

Finally, "gun control" will never be successful. Gun ACCESS control would be very successful if it is properly implemented nationally. We do not allow people who have seizures to have a driver license because they could have an episode and hurt or kill people. We do not allow people who have drug problems to operate machinery for the same reason. In order to obtain a firearm in this country, a person should have to: A) Apply for a license to purchase and carry. B) Wait at least a year while they are thoroughly trained and investigated. And C) sign papers agreeing that they will be held civilly and criminally liable if their weapons ever fall into the wrong hands.
This is the only way that these problems will ever be addressed with any type of success. I carry a weapon. My weapons are secured in a safe to which I am the ONLY person with the combination. My wife, a police officer, doesnt even have access to my weapons nor do I to hers. We have to become more diligent in our investigation into prospective fireaem owners. Nobody needs their gun right away unless they plan to act on an emotion right away. A 1 year waiting period would protect everyone and would inconvenience nobody. A thorough investigation into the applicant would protect everyone and inconvenience only bad people. Lets start being realistic and make changes that not only conform with our Constitution but also have a positive effect on these horrific criminal events.Thanks for listening.

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Eric Jeffrey

12:45 pm on Friday, January 4, 2013

I appreciate your thoughts. I am not sure what your linguistic distinction is intended to convey, but I do think that would be an important step towards reducing the number of guns in the country, and the resultant number of deaths. Given the vast number of guns alreaady in the hands of private persons (legally and illegally), it would not as a practical matter be possible to have any total civilian disarmament (if that were considered useful) but steps to prospectively improve the processes would be quite valuable.

Doug Peterson

3:26 pm on Thursday, December 27, 2012

One question that the author doesn't discuss is why he thinks that the police need such powerful weapons. Is it perhaps because the criminals they face are that well armed? Are these criminals different than the ones we might encounter? Are we just supposed to hope that our personal defense handguns will hold these attackers at bay while we wait for the police to arrive with their superior fire power? Or should we just submit to their demands and hope we're not slain?

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Eric Jeffrey

12:45 pm on Friday, January 4, 2013

As a general rule, you are better off without a gun. A study shows that a victim of an attack is 4 times as likely to be shot and 4 times as likely to be killed as an unarmed victim. And if thearmed victim has a chance to try self defense with a gun, he/she is 5 times as likely to be killed. Just something to think about.

Oh, and the powerful police weapons are, as the author states, normally reserved for special units, such as SWAT teams. They are not carried by the majority of police, even ignoring the vast difference in training.

Tony Sheffield

3:26 pm on Thursday, December 27, 2012

The reality is, none of the above suggestions would have prevented the last 4 mass shootings. The evidence shows that those mass shooters didn't stop shooting until they were met with or faced with return fire. If guns were not available to the shooters, as the letter to the editor suggests, they would have merely used machettes, swords, chemicals, vehicles, etc.. How do you propose to prevent those types of weapons from being used to mass murder?
The notion that a gun owner should be held liable for any harm done by a thief with your gun is absolute nonsense. If someone breaks into your home when you're not there and steals your and your wife's entire gun collections and goes on a rampage at the nearest elementary school, you want to be held liable? Complete BS. You haven't really thought this through very carefully.
What does "..shall not be infringed..." mean to you? To most law abiding gun owners, it means the 2nd Amendment is THE only permit required.

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Cheryl Darby

4:31 pm on Wednesday, January 2, 2013

Apparently, the part about maintaining a militia goes right over your head. We don't need to do that now, but some people in this country have decided it's going to be run by their rules. This is insanity. Freedom doesn't mean you can do whatever you choose and tomhell with everybody else. There are a numbermof people in this country who do nothing but rail against what they deem to be curtailment of freedom. If giving up assault weapons could save lives, giving up a little freedom seems a fair tradeoff to me. Some may have become accustomed to the slaughter going on with regularity in this country. I have not.

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Eric Jeffrey

12:45 pm on Friday, January 4, 2013

The mass killings are not the real issue, as they are a miniscule part of gun murders and gun deaths. The 22 who died in Newtown were just over one-fourth of the people killed by guns avery single day (on average). And do you really believe that these assailants could have killed 22 people with a machete? The most I am aware of is 11, by A highly trained individual.

It is clear beyond debate that the Second amendment is NOT the only permit that you need. even the expansive reading of the Second Amendment by 5 members of the Supreme Court explicitly acknowledges that reasonable regulation of gun possession is perfectly proper under the Second Amendment. And it is very likely that a future change in the Court's compsoition will restore the interpretation of the amendment to what virtually everyone, including the founding fathers, thought it was.

Unknown Sender

3:26 pm on Thursday, December 27, 2012

Folks, all of you have good intent, and certainly your own opinions. the one thing no one has ever said or done is: look at it from the killers view. you can instill gun laws. you can instill gun access laws, instill gun safety, and even prey if that makes you happy. your a sane person (id like to think) so your ideas are how the problem is solved by a sane person.
these freaks that kill kids are not sane. no matter what in the heat of the moment all one has to do is head to the seedy side of town, throw $50 a one of the brotha's, and ask for a 'throw away problem solver'. no law or safety training is gonna stop that, nor the killer. you can ban them but youll never ever confiscate them all.
you must 'stop the bullets' where the bullets fly. just a hint for yall, by bunkering our govt buildings are we saying we cant do this for schools? the focus ultimately will be at the schools. you cant stop the killer until he/she gets to the school! simple fact!
PEACE!!!!

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Eric Jeffrey

12:45 pm on Friday, January 4, 2013

First, these mass killings are not the real issue, they are only a miniscule part of gun homicides and gun deaths. Kids remain safer in school than walking to or from school, or playing at their own house or park. And if you do not think that we can significantly reduce the number of illegal guns, at least going forward, then you know little about the issue.

Unknown Sender

3:26 pm on Thursday, December 27, 2012

PS: and what are you gonna do after you ban guns, and teach the safety and you suddenly realize guns are NOT the only weapon an insane murder can use. what then? SCHOOLS are where we make the stand. only then is the killer on our terms and ground. id rather put our kids in fort knox and the gold in a school, or do you prefer news titles like what happened recently?

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David Turley

8:49 am on Friday, December 28, 2012

Since when does selling rubber mulch for playgrounds make one "professionally engaged" in the industry? By this standard the guy who empties the dumpster at my range is a member of the firearms industry. Anyone who finds himself, or herself, in a situation to defend his life obviously wants a defensive weapon that will stop the threat "as quickly and efficiently as possible." The OP shows his cluelessness with the claim that any good competitive shooter does not need a semi-automic weapon. Doe the mulch salesman thinks that pistol competitions should be revolver only. The vast majority of all handguns sold and carried are semi-automatic. Does the mulch guy tell his range-owner customers they are supporting "unstable mass murderers" since he see no legitimate use for a semi-automatic gun? Do all those "open carry" permit holders he claims to support all carry revolvers? I hope to share this letter with the range owners Mr. Clear sells to so they know how he feels about their business.

The writer obviously knows nothing about ammunition with his comment about hollow-point ammunition. HP ammo is designed to impart its stopping power in the bad guy, rather passing thru bodies and walls. As far as my ammo "stockpile," what is Mr. Clear's arrogant assumption of how much ammo I am allowed at any one time time for practice for competitive pistol matches?

As with most gun control hoplophobes, Mr. Clear spreads FUDD & false information reaped from an equally clueless media.

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Jesse Clear

8:49 am on Friday, December 28, 2012

Tony, Doug and Jim ... thank you for your commentary and critique of my letter.

First Tony, I understand your code very well. Here in central Virgina, and points south, "Tyranny" is now defined as the re-election of the Obama administration. But if you and your cohort by any chance are fantasizing an armed rebellion against the United States government -- guess what? YOU LOSE! Another inconvenient fact: the Second Amendment, which we all revere, refers only to a "well-regulated militia" -- not an "unregulated militia, We the People." The Second Amendment guarantees us the right to bear arms (and the responsibilities that flow from that right). It does NOT guarantee us the right to amass a military-style armory.

Doug ...."Are we just supposed to hope that our personal defense handguns will hold these attackers at bay while we wait for the police to arrive with their superior fire power? Or should we just submit to their demands and hope we're not slain?" No, not at all. Neither police nor armed guards in every school, mall, park, McDonalds, or stadium can protect us. The police arrive after the fact to mop up the blood. Armed guards at Columbine, Tuscon, Ft. Hood, and Queens NY did not exactly cover themselves in Glory. But if you're any good at all with your weapon, YOU now enjoy the element of sudden surprise. A single well-placed head or heart shot will liquidate the problem.

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Eric Hennessey

11:00 am on Friday, December 28, 2012

Jesse,

You discredit your position by automatically assuming any objection to "tyranny" equates to slack-jawed redneck opposition to the Obama administration. There's no "code" here, except perhaps for US code, which pretty clearly defines the militia as all able-bodied males aged 17 to 45:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

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Doug Peterson

9:38 pm on Friday, December 28, 2012

You didn't answer the question: Why do police need full-auto firearms while posession is restricted to we common folk?

BTW, I've never heard any professional (law enforcement, self defense, etc.) ever tell anyone that a single well-laced head shot will solve the problem. There's a reason they all say "shoot center mass".

You might want to check out opencarry.org

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Cheryl Darby

8:34 pm on Wednesday, January 2, 2013

I have never heard any mention of a "tyrannical" government until Obama was elected.

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Eric Jeffrey

12:45 pm on Friday, January 4, 2013

Eric Hennessy. Your citation disproves your argument, as it refers both the regulated militia -- e.g., the NAtional Guard, and the unregulated militia. The Second Amendment refers only to the former -- the "well-regulated" militia. In any event, the reference in the Second amendment is to well-regulated STATE militias.

Jesse Clear

8:49 am on Friday, December 28, 2012

Jim .... I agree with much of what you say (although only by implication in the letter). We both agree that ATF is a sorry misfit of an agency. But, do we agree on the cause? ATF systematically has been gutted by a miserable series of Congresses, in thrall for years to the arms industry ... and its contributions to their election campaigns plus other bribes. Your assertion: "Not everyone should have any type of firearm" is right on the mark. Now, NRA members should convince its leaders of that fact ... or replace them. LaPierre, just this week, demanded No Change, Whatever and Forever.

Your proposal ....
In order to obtain a firearm in this country, a person should have to:
A) Apply for a license to purchase and carry.
B) Wait at least a year while they are thoroughly trained and investigated. And
C) sign papers agreeing that they will be held civilly and criminally liable if their weapons ever fall into the wrong hands.
...is interesting, but B) is extreme. One year is neither practical nor realistic. Rangemasters I know can get a novice shooter up and ready inside of a month or six-weeks training, depending upon the course involved. But you're onto the right idea. You do know that gun registration documentation must be destroyed -- Congress expressly forbade a national gun-owner database which would document purchases, sales, stockpiled ammunition, domestic assault, serious misdemeanors, felonies, psychiatric commitments.

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jim curtin

1:31 pm on Friday, December 28, 2012

Jesse, I believe the 1 year waiting period may be a bit much but the training that I am referring to is not only training on how to fire a weapon accurately. It is training on how to properly secure your weapons as well. It is training on what your liabilities are if you use your weapon. It is training on what to do if your weapons are stolen from you. People buy guns and leave them in their dresser or nightstand drawer. This IS NOT secure. Banning certain types of guns in not the answer. Creating a standardized method of purchase, storage and carry laws might just have some type of effect. Guns should be registered. I am not a member of congress... I am not interested in entering into an emotional debate, that will not get us anywhere. I would like to see laws that will properly affect criminals and I pray never again to hear of a child being hurt in a situation that could have been prevented. I am a former sheriff deputy. I believe in our country but I am saddened and sickened by the lack of unity and integrity in most of our citizenry and leaderhip.

Jesse Clear

8:49 am on Friday, December 28, 2012

Finally, I won't wade into a semantic swamp with you over definitions. The heroics our our Special Forces, SWAT breach teams, etc. all point to the proper home for true automatics -- you argued my case for me very well. My main problem with semi's- is the ease of their conversion to fully automatic. I do disagree with you that "Nobody needs their gun right away" When you suffer an attempted home invasion, you have a life/death decision to make in around 8 Seconds. Call 911, and the police may get there in 8 Minutes ... On one occasion, my wife was very happy to have her Mossberg Mariner 12g at hand; two missionaries, overloaded with religious zeal, came calling uninvited at 9:15 one evening when I was out of town. One unmistakable "click" very quickly convinced them that our own two religions may have been superior to theirs. Also, her Brazilian Taurus .38 is handy when she's driving alone and after dark. So, I really don't need lectures from you on the virtues of armed self-defense. And I am mystified by your snark: "self proclaimed 'Professionally engaged in the firing range industry,'" Range masters, contractors, engineers, fire chiefs, etc, call me many times a day to consult about range construction and ballistic media options. How many deal with you?

But sincerely, Jim -- I do thank you for your Talmudic Exactitude on the finer points of modern arms technology. We do learn at least one thing each day.

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Tony Sheffield

12:18 pm on Friday, December 28, 2012

Jesse, I'm sorry for your lack of understanding and your highbrow attitude toward me. The Federalist Papers are quite revealing on the subject of citizens "keeping" arms. You could learn a thing or two by reading James Madison #26

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Eric Jeffrey

1:27 pm on Friday, January 4, 2013

I have read the complete Federalist Papers and the debates regarding the Second Amendment, and am also familiar with the actual events in the early years of the nation -- when many states/cities substantially regulated guns and the federal government took a census of gun ownership. It is quite clear that the Second Amendment is not a blanket approval for citizens to own guns, and even the 5-members of the supreme court explicitly acknowledged that fact, saying that reasonable regulation of guns is fully consistent with the Second amendment.

Unknown Sender

8:02 am on Saturday, December 29, 2012

Meanwhile, while you folks are debating the worthless meanings of militias, right to carry, banning sales, the 2nd amend, the diff between semi and full auto, and the like.... the next murderer/killer is putting together pipe bombs to stuff in his back pack. maybe even renting a uhaul like tim mcvie(sp) did. its possible some of them are even working on bleach/amonia bombs for the fresh air ducts in the a/c units. and those windows, oh yeah, since your banning guns they will stop bullets just like that! or any other destructive device that can be tossed thru them that you banned.

dam, when are you folks ever gonna listen? <shaking my head> youve been given the answer already and yet lQQk. still doesnt dawn on any of you. tsk tsk tsk. and i bet next week, more articles and answers of the same. when yall are ready, maybe i will give you the answer again. dont hold your breathe, you have alot of talking in circles to do about gun legislation, militias, and what the right to carry means.

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Eric Jeffrey

1:27 pm on Friday, January 4, 2013

Not true. It is quite clear that when gun murders go down, so invariably do total homicides. So very few people are in fact switching to other weapons. That eliminating/regulating guns would not eliminate the issue 100%, does not mean that we should not take steps that would make a significant reduction.

Jesse Clear

9:02 pm on Saturday, December 29, 2012

ROB GROGAN Thank you for a thoughtful reading of my letter. Unfortunately, "sensible consensus on gun safety..." is far beyond our current reach.
You need look no further than this column.

JIM It seems that we're actually on similar wavelengths. The training you propose, in a nutshell, comprise all Second Amendment RESPONSIBILITIES. Somehow, these seem to have been forgotten otherwise, in the clamor over RIGHTS. Again, I commend you for expressing concern and sympathy regarding the hideous event at Newtown. Realize that you were alone in this discussion for doing so? Speaks loudly about Priorities, doesn't it? Your proposal to "create a standardized method, purchase, storage and carry laws," again is right on the money (read Rob Grogan's treatise on "reasonability).

But I do remain mystified by your musing that there "...must have been a loophole in the background checking system." You know at least as well as I; the great, giant, gaping crevice in our "system" is the Private Sale Loophole -- whether from a rented table at the gun show, from an anonymous ad on Craigslist, from the trunk of a car parked in a sketchy neighborhood, or from a straw buyer. Closing that one truly is a no-brainer .... one would think. Also, another the task at hand is to rid ourselves of the intransigent leadership of the NRA. These people do not represent most of the Membership. And vote out their Congressional toadies.

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Jesse Clear

9:02 pm on Saturday, December 29, 2012

Mr (Ms?) UNKNOWN We're waiting breathlessly to know The Answer we've "been given already." The fact that "guns are NOT the only weapon" does not dismiss them from the equation. Your pipe and chlorine bombs, TONY'S machetes, swords, chemicals, and vehicles; all are fearsome to those on the receiving end. But the vast majority of mass murders are gun related and unparalleled for lethality. Sad but true.

By the way "these freaks that kill kids are not sane" is true, as far as it goes. The Utter Face of Evil, Adam Lanza, put twenty small children and their six teachers in his crosshairs and deliberately pulled the trigger between three and eleven times on each child's face and body, according to the coroner's report. Calling this Reptilian Monster "insane" tends to dismiss him as "suffering from a mental condition." But these Creatures rank well below humanity. The truly incomprensible part: virtually every one of these Things left a long indicator trail preceding their bestial acts. But no one ever connected the dots.

DOUG "Why do police need full-auto firearms...?" Thank you -- you've precisely made my case.

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Doug Peterson

4:55 pm on Monday, December 31, 2012

The question was "Why do police need full-auto firearms while such weapons are restricted to us common folks?" If they need them to defeat a criminal so armed, why aren't we afforded the same capability to (potentially) oppose such a criminal?

Jesse Clear

9:02 pm on Saturday, December 29, 2012

Excuse me TONY, but Alexander Hamilton, not Madison, was the author of #26 (believe it, my brows are much lower than yours...) If you'll recall, the original unorganized militia carefully included WHITE males only. This limitation was not accidental. I happen to live and work 30 miles east of James Madison's "Montepelier" Plantation -- the seat of his slave empire. What terrified our Virginia Founding Fathers most -- even above the British -- were Slave Rebellions, such as occurred in Haiti under Toussaint L'Ouverture, 1791.

ERIC Please tell us then.... which specific "Tyranny" do you plan to confront? ... if not The One which so frightens "the slack-jawed" ilk?

By the way Mr. TURLEY, your insulting screed is beneath contempt and unworthy of reply. But to set the record straight for the rest of us: my main business is Kevlar™-style ballistic rubber media used for military, police, and civilian firing ranges, obstacle courses, combat pit and rappel tower bases. My sidelines are landscape and playground mulches, paving aggregates, athletic field infill, equestrian footing, and civil engineering applications.

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Mac Smith

10:10 pm on Saturday, December 29, 2012

This conversation started off well and has now gotten into the weeds. Let's regroup. A few points I'd like to throw into the discussion. My understanding is that 75% of guns used in crimes are obtained through the infamous "gun show loop hole" or private sales. This seems like a red flag and maybe a way to curb a few deaths every year. Plus half of all gun deaths are by suicide. Looks like we need better mental health. Do those two things and we all feel better about ourselves.

Also our definitions of "well regulated militia" and "tyranny" can differ, but remember it is also unconstitutional to take up arms against the government. So the idea that you can stockpile weapons to protect yourself against a possible tyrannical government doesn't hold water in my book. We elect the government and give it its power through the voting booth. We are a civilized Western nation. We don't overthrow our government by force.

Our problem is the amount of weapons available to the public. We have 5% of the world's population and 40% of its guns. There is nothing immediate we can do about it. Our culture has to change and it is. Gun ownership is down. Forty percent of homes have guns - a recent historic low. All the guns being gobbled up this year and over the past four years are being purchased by people who already own guns. If you have a gun in your house, you are 5 times more likely to be shot and typically it is by someone you already know.

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Judy Rudek

7:27 am on Monday, December 31, 2012

"it is also unconstitutional to take up arms against the government" - Really? Not to be snarky, but where does it say that?

I am also curious to know where your various statistics originated. Can you site a source on those (a non-biased one, if possible)? I find it very hard to believe that 75% of crime guns were obtained through private sales.

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Mac Smith

10:28 am on Monday, December 31, 2012

Judy - I should not have said "unconstitutional." But I'm not sure why anyone would think it is lawful to overthrow the government? What gives a person the legal right to overturn the legal creation of a government?

The actual law (which anyone can look up with a Internet search) is 18 USCS § 2384. Seditious Conspiracy. It says, "If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."

So don't go getting yourself "fined." ;)

Also, I like your reference to a "non-biased" source. Isn't a statistic a statistic? I think this is the issue that the GOP ran into in the last election. They did not believe the numbers in front of them. (So let's see if I remembered the numbers correctly. Please hold.)

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Mac Smith

10:28 am on Monday, December 31, 2012

Goodness. I have some more numbers to back up. Here goes (about to see how good my memory is.)

A 2007 survey by the U.N's Office on Drugs and Crime found that the United States, which has 5% of the world's population, owns 50% of the world's guns. (I know. It's the UN. We can't believe a word they say.)

The number of households owning guns has declined from almost 50% in 1973 to just over 32% in 2010, according to a 2011 study produced by The University of Chicago's National Opinion Research Center. The number of gun owners has gone down almost 10% over the same period, the report found. (It appears I was off a bit again. I thought I read 40% somewhere else, but this is the first study I found this morning.)

The 5 times more likely to be shot if you own a gun stat comes from a 2009 University of Pennsylvania study. Now that also includes suicides. This figure is why if you buy life insurance you are charged a higher premium if you have a gun in the home. You are a higher risk to insure.

Mac Smith

10:28 am on Monday, December 31, 2012

And it turns out I did not remember the gun show loophole stat correctly. It is not 75% but 80%. And the stat is for "private gun sales" or sales that occur without a background check.

The Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research published that figure in a 2009 white paper entitled "The Case for Gun Policy in America."

I apologize for not being precise with my numbers. But my point remains the same. We really don't have to limit gun types or clip sizes, etc. We just need to regulate sales better. If most gun crimes are committed with weapons bought without a background check through private sales and gun show private sales then require a background check before the sale. I believe their is a phone number that is called and it take like 90 seconds to provide the buyers address, name, SSN and you get the okay or the denial.

That refinement of regulation along with some better mental health programs (suicide accounts for half of all gun deaths) could greatly reduce the over 30,000 deaths by guns in the US.

And it can be done without infringing on 2nd Amendment rights.

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Doug Peterson

4:55 pm on Monday, December 31, 2012

Mac Smith: No, statistics aren't just statistics. It's the conclusions we draw from them that give them relevance. Baseball is probably one of the most "statistic intensive" activities around, and for decades the traditional parameters were accepted as gospel in defining great teams and players.

But then along came Bill James and his Sabermetric Principles, a whole new way of looking at things. He and his methods are widely seen as contributing to the Red Sox World Series wins in 2004 and 2007.

It should also be noted that the "The Case for Gun Policy Reforms in America." paper was produced under the auspices of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

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Raconteur

4:22 pm on Wednesday, January 2, 2013

"It should also be noted that the "The Case for Gun Policy Reforms in America." paper was produced under the PRECONCEIVED AGENDA DRIVEN auspices of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health."

Fixed it for ya' ;o)

Raconteur

1:30 pm on Wednesday, January 2, 2013

Mr. Clear, you are better informed than then usual "Fudd", but still have a lot to learn.
“Semi-automatic and automatic weapons are military and police tools.” Horse hockey. Any weapon is a tool for whoever is using it and the 2nd Amendment makes no distinction of what job citizens have.
“They were designed to kill the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible.” More crap. Firearms are designed to put bullets into targets, whatever the targets may be. When I use my guns for defense, they are for stopping the threat, not killing anyone. When I use them for target shooting, they are for putting holes in paper targets. When I use them for hunting, then they are for killing animals “as quickly and efficiently as possible.”
“Any distinction is academic between Semi- and Automatic weaponry.” ??? I’ll give you an M-16 and you fire full auto from 300 Meters, I’ll shoot one on semi-auto. Who will put more rounds on target?
“"Conversion kits," readily available on the grey-market, easily can reconfigure a semi- into an automatic weapon.” If you have a full blown gunsmithing shop. You do know it is illegal without the class III license, yes? More ill-informed propaganda from a Fudd.

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Raconteur

1:30 pm on Wednesday, January 2, 2013

Definitions: You got it right, then blew it with the parenthetical BS. Selectable semi/automatic fire, with a light to medium power round, is the main characteristic of an assault RIFLE. There is no military definition of "assault weapon". It is a fiction of the gun control advocates (Josh Sugarmann) to confuse the ignorant into thinking they are machine guns.
“Neither style weapon — nor its accoutrements (30 > 50-round magazines, 100-round drums, unjacketed or hollow-point bullets, stockpiled ammunition -- have any business in the hands of civilians.” You are aware that police are civilians? Upon what great work of fiction do you derive your conclusion? Scenario/Question: 5 armed toughs invade your home. You have an AR 15. How many rounds of ammo do want to have in your rifle? If you have a pistol, again, how many rounds do you want in the magazine?

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Raconteur

1:30 pm on Wednesday, January 2, 2013

“…I suggest they join a WELL-REGULATED Militia — as detailed in the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution)...the Marine Corps, the Army infantry, the Seals, Delta Force, the Virginia National Guard, or any big-city police SWAT team.) Look up the definition of militia and search on it in the Constitution. Read about militia in the Federalist Papers. You won’t want to make that ignorant statement again.
“For self and property protection, competitive and recreational target shooting, the hunting, skeet, and trap sports — a well-trained gun owner has no need whatever for semis- or automatics.” See Scenario/Question above. What a stupid statement. Two rounds will be enough in an armed home invasion by 4-5 toughs? You must be one hell of a shot.
“They should be banned outright to the civilian gun owner community. Yes...that may well harm a very profitable part of the arms industry. So be it.” So you want to disarm the police? By the way, are you going to come get mine? Yeah, you’ll be right behind Sarah Brady. Brave guy.

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Jesse Clear

7:30 am on Thursday, January 3, 2013

Well Mr. Raconteur, you're quite a story teller (in French as well?) Let's take your diatribe from the top.
♦ “Semi-automatic and automatic weapons are military and police tools.” You may recall that the 2nd Amendment was designed and conceived in the era of musketry. Are you saying that the Founding Fathers would have approved anyone/everyone to amass their own private armory?

♦ "When I use my guns for defense, they are for stopping the threat, not killing anyone." I admire your restraint. When my daughter was mugged at throat knifepoint in Baltimore ... she did shoot to kill, with my full approval. The mugger survived ... barely. While I was out of town, my wife was confronted at 9:30 pm with suspicious knocks at the door. Her Mossberg Mariner 12-gauge would have made mincement of (as it turned out, two missionaries full more of religiosity than good sense). They too survived the experience. Do NOT preach to me about armed self-defense.

♦ Had you fully read my original letter and the 35 comments following, you'd have seen that its theme was the overwhelming LETHALITY of armed mass murderers. (Or have you forgotten already the massacre at Newtown CT? ... only one other respondent even mentioned it). So you're little game, semi- vs auto-, at the 300 meter range doesn't wash in this discussion.

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Jesse Clear

7:30 am on Thursday, January 3, 2013

♦ "....reconfigure a semi- into an automatic weapon.” Wrong again. Have you ever heard of a bump-fire SlideFire Stock®? No? I can convert a Bushmaster into a near M-16 in 20 minutes. If you've got 386 bucks + shipping, you've got a near-automatic. (ATF has declared it 'legal' since the stock recoil itself, instead of your held trigger finger, does the deed. No Class III required. Our Talmudic BAFTE hard at work again!). By the way, don't try filing the sear -- 2 milimeters too deep and you end up with a blown breech with lots o' shrapnel.

... And you're preaching ILLEGALITY to intending mass murderers?

♦ "There is no military definition of "assault weapon". It is a fiction of gun control advocates". There I agree with you. But it's not a contrived "Fiction;" rather a chronic "Confusion."

♦ "You are aware that police are civilians?" Quite ... as are Breach Teams, SWAT, fire-fighters, and others who put their lives on the line for us every day. And they are the folks who truly NEED automatic shotguns and other arms at least equal to the thugs and other misfits who readily get them at private sales, from craigslist ads, from car-trunk salesmen, from straw buyers .... or steal them from mommy or daddy.

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Jesse Clear

7:30 am on Thursday, January 3, 2013

♦ Speaking (again) of "militia" -- well-regulated and not -- please give a careful reading of the entire correspondence. By the way, since you seem not that enthusiastic about my proposal to join a Real Militia, let's compare: I'm a triple veteran: USN / Koren War era; US merchant marine / Vietnam; US Foreign Service, / '69 to '95. What's yours?

♦ "By the way, are you going to come get mine? Yeah, you’ll be right behind Sarah Brady. Brave guy." You seem like a pretty tough Hombre yourself ... challenging an individual to come take your toys away. Sorry pal, I'm crazy but not stupid. Take off your tinfoil hat and don't squint for the UN black helicopters. No-one is going to take your guns away -- UNLESS you become a felon, show a history of domestic violence, mental instability, or a streak of civil disturbances. Then, my friend, AUTHORITY will come knocking at your door. And you will answer meekly and respectfully. If you stay clean -- and don't issue implied threats over the internet -- you'll be just fine, and you'll continue to enhance my business.

♦ Finally, just curious...... What, if any, gun-related regulation, WOULD you accept?

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Doug Peterson

6:35 pm on Thursday, January 3, 2013

I've met a few "Triple Veterans" (WWII, Korea, Vietnam) whose service dates from about 1940 - 1970. I admire those guys. Some were just getting ready to retire from the USN when I joined in 1965. You probably met a few too.

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Raconteur

11:09 am on Friday, January 4, 2013

You are proud of your service and probably should be. I am a Nam combat vet and was in the 1st Gulf war. I don't talk my military experiences with people that I don't know, respect, or REMF "warriors". However, I do happen to have an additional 38 years of RDT&E with the Navy. From the 16" guns on the Iowa class to 5” guided projectiles, to special weapons for the SEAL Teams and Marines. Including designing circuit boards for a Mars probe. I hold 14 patents on weapons systems, including 2 on the 20MM sniper rifle.
Your Kevlar mat catchers sound cute. Try designing a system to catch a 60MM tungsten penetrator from an EM gun at 35 megajoules, in 100 feet. I was integral to the team that successfully designed, built and fired a 350lb.,157MM naval gun barrel with carbon as its primary structural material.
I have designed, built and tested weapons that you would say are impossible. I have evaluated many of those "in the field".
As to what regulations I would accept on arms? The 2nd Amendment as written and intended by the Founders, is the only regulation needed. If a person cannot be trusted with arms, then they cannot be trusted in society. Controlling the insane and criminal is not gun control.
You have obviously not read the scholarly treatises on the 2nd Amendment rights (both sides). I do get belligerent and offensive at times, especially when people attack and propose limiting constitutionally protected rights from a stance of self-righteous ignorance.

Jesse Clear

6:41 am on Friday, January 4, 2013

RUSS RAMSEY ... Jesse here. Thank you for your edifying note.
♦ First, I thank you for your service and combat experience ... while you neglected to thank me for mine. Second, had you closely read the original letter and following correspondence -- at no time did I ever present myself as a "weapons or tactical expert"... that's clearly your department. Third, the ENTIRE THEME of this effort has been to remember the unspeakable tragedy of mass murders in this country; committed by deranged punks who get their hands on lethal weapons, often legally, through loopholes in the regulations ... or by outright theft from careless owners.

♦ You are yet one more commentor who seems blind to the overwhelming tragedy of Newtown CT ... and earlier catastrophes at San Ysidrio CA - McDonalds, Columbine CO - high school, Aurora CO - theater, Fort Hood TX - Army base, Tucson AZ - shopping mall, Lancaster PA - Amish school, Virginia Tech, Binghamton NY - immigration center, Oak Creek WI - Sikh temple ... shall I continue?

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Jesse Clear

6:41 am on Friday, January 4, 2013

♦ Now I will ask you: WHAT, if ANY gun-related regulations would you support? Regarding your detailing of combat necessities and defense of legal shooting sports -- I totally agree with you on all counts. But that is not the issue here. The issue is the dire necessity to absorb the REALITY (listed above) that evil and degenerate Monsters should have NO access to firepower whatever. But law-abiding gun aficionados -- such as yourself -- seem terrified that our own government plans to confiscate our weaponry. The NRA leadership feeds this frenzy with their "ideologically rigid" stance against any and all regulation. This must and will change. The major thrust will be to cauterize the gaping Private Sale Loophole.

♦ Do not try to shoot the Messenger ... just heed the Message.

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Russell Ramsey

11:09 am on Friday, January 4, 2013

Jesse, my miss, thanks for your Naval and foreign service. But please, let's be clear about your opening remarks... you made a specific point to tell us you're "professionally engaged" in a firearms related industry then you stated you hoped your work with gun ranges would hopefully provide the necessary "purchase" to educate those who are "honestly confused and not ideologically rigid." You even tried to educate us (inaccurately) about ammunition.... so you clearly positioned yourself as enough of an authority on military, para-military, guns and ammo to tell all of us who needs access to which weapons, ammo and why. If the "ENTIRE THEME" is truly how to keep guns away from deranged zealots then I'm all for that discussion. People commit these crimes not guns. I never negotiated with a single weapon when I was in Afghanistan... I always talked to people about their actions and how we could improve their security. But before you point a finger at the NRA for causing a frenzy with their ideological rigidness you should look at your own comments. You stated gun attacks are, ".... unparalleled for lethality. Sad but true." No, that's not true. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people without a gun. And the worst mass murder of school children in our history happened on May 18th, 1927 in Bath, Michigan when Andrew Kehoe killed 45 people, 38 children, with a bomb. A second timer failed or it would have been worse.

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Russell Ramsey

11:09 am on Friday, January 4, 2013

Jesse, I challenged your comments about weapons and their usage because that was the focus of your original letter. So I take great offense to your comment that it seems I'm "blind to the overwhelming tragedy in Newtown CT." What a horrible assertion. I'm a father of four, have escorted teenage kids home from combat to their parents and final place of rest. That was heartbreaking. I've seen people mangled on the battle field and put friends into body bags. I've always cherished the sanctity of life everywhere and think I've proven that fighting for our country. I'm all for mandating private gun sales be transferred through an FFL holder which requires a background check. That's common sense, IMHO. Perhaps we should also explore requiring various levels of training to buy certain weapons? Dunno, just a thought. But our number one issue is better safety nets in place for those in need of mental health care.
Now, in addition to telling me I'm indifferent to the Newtown shooting you also say I'm "terrified that our own government plans to confiscate our weaponry." Please, you don't know how I feel. But to address your point.... there have been plenty of lawmakers saying they want to take our weapons so confiscation's not a farfetched concept for gun owners to be concerned about. And even review your original letter to the editor.... you said no semi-autos for anybody but police and military. My bottom line is... please don't punish me for things done by crazy people.

Jesse Clear

8:28 am on Monday, January 7, 2013

All interested: I'm bringing this thread to an end -- at least my own participation in it -- but I encourage further thoughts and commentary. First, I'd like to thank my Supporters for their inputs. And I'd especially like to thank my Detractors ... because you have sharpened my understanding of your positions, contributed valuable insights, and enhanced my resolve to approach this issue in a calm and reasonable way. More about that later.

First, to my Supporters: May I offer a few admonishments ...
● Do not embrace the fuzzy Utopia of a "gun-free America," that never will, and never should, happen.
● As many detractors have noted, the vast, vast majority of gun enthusiasts are normal law-abiding citizens who inhabit those recreational or hunting cultures ... of which you happen not to be a part.
● Please don't fall for the scarecrow of ambiguous and ill-defined Assault Weapons ... because they "look scary."
● Also, don't fall for the "mental health" maze. This classifies mass murders as "victims" of their affliction. Rather, we must concentrate on BEHAVIOR signposts. Phony psychiatric "diagnoses" have let assassins, such as John Hinkley Jr, almost completely off the hook. Or consider the squalid and on-going soap operas surrounding Jared Loughner's and Nidal Malik Hasan's "treatments."

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Jesse Clear

8:28 am on Monday, January 7, 2013

(cont'd)
● And please be aware that armed self-protection, in our day and age, is a vital concern (I speak from personal experience). While you may shrink at the thought of handling guns (vs getting qualified instruction in their safe use), please tell me YOUR alternative -- when your family or home falls under immediate and violent threat? But please read on -- I count upon your support.

Now, to my Detractors: While I contained my enthusiasm for the tone and attitude of much of your commentaries (ex: "Elmer Fuddery"), I did glean valuable insights from them.
● Many of you have noted the lethality of bombs, knives, machetes, automobiles, even the abortionist's scalpel. True enough. But actually, you side-step the sad fact that the GREAT majority of killings -- whether day-to-day street violence, serial, revenge, or mass murders -- are committed with gunfire, by criminals, drug or alcohol infested minds, or deranged creeps. You are willfully blinding yourself to this reality.
● Please do not succumb to the mass hysterias of "Gun Confiscation," US government "Tyranny," or any other scarecrow that the NRA or other Second Amendment zealots may throw in your face.
● Yes ... I do consider NRA leadership to be the prime obstacle to REASONABLE gun legislation. David Keene and his front-man, Wayne LaPierre, have thrown up a stone wall of opposition to ANY change in legislation. This must Stop ... and they must Go.

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Jesse Clear

8:28 am on Monday, January 7, 2013

(cont'd)
● Finally, please remember that I'm just the guy who keeps the back-splatter and ricochet out of your body and the lead dust out of your lungs. I do know my way around range construction, renovation, and furnishing -- as you know your way around the technicalities of weaponry and ammunition.
=====================================
Within the next few days, I wil submit a petition to the new Gun Violence Prevention Task Force which will call for certain common-sense and reasonable changes in gun law, regulation, and enforcement. Its primary elements will include:

♦ Immediate closure of private gun sales exemption from individual registration (the most glaring loophole of them all).
♦ Enforce the enforcers. BATF has a truly miserable record in this prime responsibility. Establish effective oversight on this agency.
♦ This one is sensitive, but the most important of all. Starting from childhood through adulthood, we must set Behavioral Signposts which can be noted and tracked.
Such behaviors as torturing small animals for pleasure, chronic bullying, death or injury threats of any kind through whatever media, extreme social isolation, repeated attention by police or judiciary for civil disturbance, domestic violence, child abuse. Many of these behaviors preceded and could have predicted individuals who showed capacity and intent to commit violence. Tragically, such dots have ever been connected.

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Jesse Clear

8:28 am on Monday, January 7, 2013

(cont'd)
♦ Require that ALL gun owners re-qualify every year or 18-months by certified range training in accuracy, safe storage, and crisis behavior.
(The Second Amendment conveys Responsiblities as well as Rights. This is one way to honor those responsibilities.)
♦ Institute a national gun and ammunition sales data-base (to identify suspicious frequency, quantity, and timing of buys and sells).
♦ Encourage the real value of responsible gun ownership, periodic training and updating. Recognize appropriate weaponry for recreational, hunting, and self-protection.

We owe at least this much to the Newtown CT massacred children and their teachers ... and all the thousands of other gunned down victims across America, whether by criminals, drunks, dopers, or unhinged monsters in human form. It's clearly true that "guns (alone) do not kill people" .... but entirely too many guns are in too many wrong hands. To identify and incapacitate those hands -- that is our true mission.

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Mac Smith

9:28 am on Monday, January 7, 2013

Thanks Jesse! We may agree and disagree with some (or all) of what you have written, but you did a good job of supporting and explaining your position. Well done.

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