UMW Police Take Gun From Student
University of Mary Washington's student newspaper reported that UMW police seized the gun from the student on Monday because it is against the university's policy to possess guns.
University of Mary Washington campus police seized a handgun from a student Monday on the third floor of Eagle Landing, according to the student newspaper The Bullet.
The Bullet reports that students saw the student with the weapon and reported it to the campus police.
Doug Searcy, vice president of Student Affairs, said that the campus police determined there was no ongoing threat in the apartment building. The student in possession of the gun was identified and detained, and the weapon was removed immediately.
The student code of conduct prohibits students from possessing any type of gun.
C. Illegal or unauthorized possession of firearms, explosives, fireworks, other weapons, or dangerous chemicals on University premises, or at University-sponsored events or activities.
The Lama
6:53 am on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Good!
Badger
7:00 am on Saturday, March 24, 2012
The student code says 'Illegal...firearms'. I'd have to see a more specific definition of this. An illegal firearm might be one that is stolen. If the student had a permit that might abrogate the 'illegality' aspect.
Lindsay
8:55 am on Saturday, March 24, 2012
There's a big difference in meaning between "illegal... firearms" and "illegal or unauthorized possession of firearms", the key word being "possession." It's not that the firearm is or isn't illegal, it's that the students are not allowed to have firearms on campus at all, even if they are legally owned by/registered to the student. Mary Wash is part of the Keep Guns Off Campus campaign, and I'm glad to see that they're taking it seriously.
Paborn
10:41 am on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Legal..illegal..do you have a preference on which one you'd like your head blown off with?
virginia
10:55 am on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Great job on the students reporting the student with the gun and good job on Mary Wash handling it asap. In thinking about VA Tech at what point would this information go out on the alert system?
Frdxbrg
12:10 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
So the student was unlawfully detained and had his property unlawfully seized pursuant to an illegal student code of conduct. If i was that student I would open carry on campus and send the school administration a copy of The Virginia law.
T Ailshire
1:09 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
What do I think about this? I think this isn't the full story.
Was the student in his apartment? If so, what does his lease say - absent the wording in the Code of Conduct, does the lease prohibit private property?
What in the Code of Conduct or Virginia code gives campus police authority to confiscate property when there is no threat?
I hope the campus is prepared for a lawsuit, and the student willing to transfer to somewhere that respects his rights -- but my opinion here is based on a brief, incomplete story. Incomplete stories cause all kinds of misunderstandings and friction that could be avoided.
Dan Telvock
3:38 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
T, this isn't the full story because I aggregated it from the college. Use the link and read what the college wrote about the incident for the other details.
T Ailshire
3:40 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
That one doesn't say how the code of conduct authorizes seizure of legal, privately owned property either.
virginia
5:02 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
The student was in his dorm room and it is against school policy for any student, employee, etc to have a weapon of any kind. I have a student that goes here. Too bad they werent able confiscate the guns ithat other colleges had issues with!
T Ailshire
5:49 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Against school policy DOES NOT EQUAL illegal.
Doesn't matter how much any of us, or the campus police, dislike guns -- there were no LAWS broken -- at least none mentioned by any of these articles.
Arnold Smithson
6:49 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
The best source I could find for VA gun laws on college campuses says that the state allows it, but that it also has a provision that individual campuses are allowed to ban guns in their dorms and buildings. I can't find the cite in the law, but here's the reference I took it from:
http://www.armedcampuses.org/content/laws-concerning-carrying-concealed-firearms-virginia
Arnold Smithson
6:59 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
OpenCarry.org seems to validate this idea, saying that in VA it's "not statutorily prohibited" compared to Utah where it's "statutorily authorized." I still can't find the specific law, but every website I read seems to go back to the idea that the state doesn't prohibit firearms for students on school property but also allows the colleges to decide.
http://www.opencarry.org/college.html
http://www.opencarry.org/college.html
virginia
6:27 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
So are you saying you approve of the student having a gun on campus?!
T Ailshire
6:40 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Of course. If he's over 18 and has no disqualifying factors, the simple fact he's on campus does not turn him from a law-abiding citizen to a crazed killer.
Why wouldn't I approve?
virginia
6:51 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
How do you know he doesnt have disqualifying factors? If you child attended this school would you allow him/her to carry a gun?
T Ailshire
7:02 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Why, yes. I bought my daughter her first gun while she was in college.
If it was bought from a federally licensed firearms dealer, the owner would have had to pass a background check - with no disqualifying factors. If it was given as a gift, the donor has to be reasonably certain the recipient is not a disqualified person. In our nation, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
From there, I go to logic.
I don't know the campus, but if these are apartments rather than dorms, it's likely the owner was not a freshman, thus likely over 18. Logic hints his age is not a disqualifying factor.
If the owner was not concealing the firearm, logically it is *most likely* it was obtained legally.
T Ailshire
7:06 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Virginia permits public colleges to promulgate regulations without legislative oversight. At some point, that will be changed, but for now a public university can prohibit firearms *in its buildings* by regulation. UMW has not yet promulgated such a regulation. A student at UMW has no *legal* prohibition about carrying guns, only an administrative one.
Natatia Bledsoe
7:07 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
In January 2011, the Virginia Supreme Court upheld George Mason University's prohibition against guns in campus buildings and at sports and entertainment events. The justices noted in their opinion that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that guns can be prohibited in sensitive places like schools and government buildings. UMW is on solid ground with their removal of the firearm.
T Ailshire
7:25 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
The ruling in that case was narrow and GMU only.
The legislature has given the schools over-broad authority to prohibit firearms (and other things) by *regulation*. UMW has not promulgated said regulation.
virginia
7:29 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Thank you Natatia for making this clear as some where unsure of where this policy stood. Natatia's reply should clear all of the misconceptions up as she is with the Fredericksburg police department. Job well done by all parties involved in having the firearm removed.
Arnold Smithson
7:37 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
While the ruling was about GMU, the precedent is fairly clear for universities being allowed to ban firearms. From the decision:
"The board of visitors is also tasked with safeguarding the
university’s property and the people who use it by making
“all needful rules and regulations concerning the
University.” Id. Such necessary rules and regulations
include policies that promote safety on GMU’s campus. "
UMW's BOV are given the same power through the state (the case cites "Code §§ 23-91.24, -91.29." and all universities are given the same power in that code), so I wouldn't hang my hat on the "GMU only" part of the law.
I'll admit to not knowing if "regulation" vs. "college policy" is a meaningful distinction. I saw a few universities did ban firearms specifically, but as best as I could tell from a quick search it was only three or four. But your point that the ruling was narrow and GMU only is a flawed one. The precedent could easily be applied to UMW and I'd be curious to hear where the decision said "This only applies to GMU."
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1091934.pdf
TPKeller
1:50 pm on Monday, March 26, 2012
Ms. Bledsoe, I'm sorry to tell you that the Virginia Supreme Court's interpretation of what the US Supreme Court said in Heller with regard to sensitive places is absolutely wrong. Unfortunately, they, along with most anti-gun organizations, read what they wanted the opinion to say, and not what it actually said.
The subject reference was made in the Heller opinion, but was clarified by an extremely important footnote. The text of the opinion states:
"Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."
TPKeller
1:57 pm on Monday, March 26, 2012
The all-important footnote says:
"We identify these presumptively lawful regulatory measures only as examples; our list does not purport to be exhaustive."
Not these critical words: "presumptively lawful."
That means that the US Supreme Court presumes that the fairly common bans on gun possession in these types of places is lawful. But that is all. The status of these laws was not considered in Heller, and they went out of their way to say "presumptive" so that people would know that they were not "deciding" that issue. Unfortunately, most people ignored their efforts, wrongly so.
Reordered for proper sequence.
virginia
7:08 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
So you would allow your daughter to disobey the schools policy?
T Ailshire
7:29 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Yep. POLICY, not law. And frankly, once a student is over 18, the parent isn't "allowing" much. Remember, as a nation we made the decision that 18-year-olds are adults. I also made certain my children knew from a very young age when they disregard a rule, policy, law, or anything else, they must also be prepared to face consequences. I think this student should fight the unconstitutionality of the consequences, and will be offering my financial support should he need it for his lawyer.
I was raped in college. I don't think any student should have to give up the right to self-defense in response to a lowest-common-denominator POLICY set by a risk-averse bureaucracy.
virginia
7:32 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
That a shame.
Arnold Smithson
7:42 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
Regarding the "policy v. regulation" distinction - this student (as best as I can tell from the articles) isn't being charged with a crime, and any punishment will be meted out through the campus judicial system. It seems like the reason the police were involved in seizing the firearm is because it was a firearm. I would assume something less volatile could be seized by a student resident assistant (an illegal hotplate, candles, or whatever else is banned in student residence buildings). Does the college have the right to ban those things? And to seize them if they are found?
(I'm assuming the university bans hotplates - I know mine did when I was in college for fears of fire safety)
T Ailshire
8:41 pm on Saturday, March 24, 2012
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2011/aug/06/cuccinelli-clarifies-guns-campus-position-ar-1222531/
I didn't take the time to go directly to the opinion; this is a news report "of" the opinion.